9 replies to this topic

[Sieghart93]

say.... arent the towers getting useless and uselesser as time goess @? (well except manaburn and slow tower)  impossible above.... and specially against air bosses....most people are getting units or hero with item else it wouldve be impossible to win over the bosses on last 20 minute..

Would it be good to revive the uses of towers ? such as further unlocking unique skills or uprades on damages.... personally i would like a new hero which is turrets related...with ability to create special turrets which can only be use with that hero around.. maybe couldve apply the same system like the map *Power TD* or watever the map calls again..... where the towers has to be provided by mana to be active (attack/skills)  in this case the hero... or just as the old homunculus ...semi-hero? or watever that calls... with stats by following the main hero or certain condition..

Or allow the transmutation of towers which can make them save more spaces +.+

[englocked]

They have their use. They are the cheapest source of dps early game and their "magic abilites" stay useful late game. 

 

That said I do agree that they are not very useful late game in terms of dps. I think the tower mechanic upgrades should be reworked. Right now they don't seem to do enough and it takes too long to get all of them (never quite understood the love for all these countless upgrades). On the other hand, buying items is instant and very effective.

 

I think transmutation of towers would certainly make them more useful but also too strong early game.

[12th Archivist]

Being able to transmute towers could be another team upgrade. It could cost 10 gold and 500 lumber, which would make it the most expensive upgrade in that list, but also very unlikely to be researched too early in the game.

 

I'm coming up with a chart of dps/square so that we can better compare all the dps sources, and just how good (and bad) each one is. But given the current state of things, I would not be surprised if most if not all towers ranked lower than units.

[Nevo]

We are planning to re-work the Towers entirely so that instead of have multiple upgrades from building to building. You would simply upgrade once from the basic tower and research upgrades. This would benefit all your towers equally and if the towers are destroyed, you won't have a problem rebuilding them. We would create a new Towers Tab in Command Center that would feature upgrades like Attack Damage, Attack Speed, Attack Range, HP Bonus, etc.

 

This will probably be developed for 6.54 and as you can imagine require a lot of beta testing and tweaking.

[12th Archivist]

Here's my list of damage per second for all the towers (except anti-air) per square, where a square is equal to the area that could fit a tiny lumber mill. Since all towers take up four squares of area, each DPS result has been divided by four. These values were taken by the equation: dps = (average damage) / [ (time to attack ten times) / (10) ] . These values assume that the towers have had no upgrades, nor are being affected by any auras. It is assumed that 1 gold is equal to 50 lumber.

High Damage Tower	DPS	Lumber	Slowing Tower	DPS	Lumber	Shocking Tower	DPS	Lumber
Flame Turret	53	0	Frost Tower	17	0	Tesla Coil	14	0
Blaze Turret	61	0	Ice Tower	28	5	Fusion Coil	25	0
Lava Turret	78	2	Chill Tower	33	15	Voltage Coil	42	2
Volcano Turret	98	5	Glacial Tower	43	30	Shocking Coil	64	5
Inferno Turret	121	15	Ice Age Tower	49	100	Thunder	82	30
Hell Turret	137	30	-	-	-	Jolt	105	30
Draco Turret	159	100	-	-	-	Lightning Coil	127	100

Bashing Tower	DPS	Lumber	Basic Tower	DPS	Lumber	Critical Tower**	DPS	Lumber
Rock Thrower	27	0	Arrow Tower	4	0	Novice Assassin	29	0
Stone Thrower	32	0	Spike Tower	6	0	Accomplished Assassin	33	0
Boulder Thrower	41	2	Dart Tower	10	0	Adept Assassin	41	2
Gravel Thrower	51	5	Bolt Tower	13	0	Skilled Assassin	49	5
Mountain Thrower	60	15	Pike Tower	16	0	Expert Assassin	61	15
Earth Thrower	75	100	Harpoon Tower	20	1	Master Assassin	86	30
-	-	-	Lance Tower	24	2	Shadow Assassin	102	100
-	-	-	Spear Tower	29	3	-	-	-
-	-	-	Javelin Tower	33	4	-	-	-
-	-	-	Arrowstorm Tower	47 - 186 *	4	-	-	-

* The Arrowstorm Tower can attack between 1 and 4 targets at a time.

** Critical Towers deal 2/3 DPS to normal enemies and 3/2 DPS to bosses.

Magic Tower*	DPS	Lumber	Unique Tower**	DPS	Lumber	Long Range Tower	DPS	Lumber
Arcane Tower	32	0	Peasant Launcher	30	0	Gravity Disruptor	29	0
Mystic Tower	37	5	Peon Launcher	39	2	Gravity Shifter	14	2
Enigmatic Tower	47	15	Penguin Launcher	52	5	Gravity Spire	25	5
Enchanted Tower	57	30	Panda Launcher	67	15	Gravity Splicer	45	15
Diabolic Tower	70	100	Pony Launcher	87	30	Gravity Accelerator	74	30
-	-	-	Infernal Launcher	107	100	Gravity Fabricator	92	100

* Magic Towers deal additional damage by burning mana, and can deal up to 3 additional points of damage for every unit of mana burned. This DPS boost has not been included here.

** Unique Towers deal considerable splash damage, which has not been considered. The DPS listed is for damage dealt to a single non-boss target. Bosses take 1/2 DPS from Unique Towers.

These are the values of all the recruitable units I could find. Every unit except for the Military Tank takes up a single square, so their DPS values are unchanged. Every unit is benefiting from all ranks of Short Range Mastery or Long Range Mastery. (Getting every Tower Mechanics upgrade takes 5150 lumber and at least 20 minutes of back-to-back upgrading, and I rarely see anybody get even the first rank of it. Getting every rank of both Short Range Mastery and Long Range Mastery only requires 450 lumber and about 2 minutes of upgrading, and I see a lot more people get these.)

Unit	DPS	Lumber	Unit	DPS	Unit	Unit	DPS	Lumber
Light Marine	398	0	Medium Marine	442	0	Heavy Marine	530	50
Potion Master	509	4	Exterminator	1367	20	Firebat	309	50
Rocketeer	633	125	Sniper	322	125	Military Tank	303	1500
Swordsman	1291	4	Bodyguard	63	4	Gladiator	1796	10
Siege Machine	628	50	-	-	-	-	-	-

In conclusion, it's pretty clear that units do vastly more damage AND are far more cost effective than any tower. Even the Light Marine, which is completely free, deals more than twice as much damage as the final upgrade of the so-called "high-damage" towers. Units are also trained faster than towers upgrade. With the Inventory Bonus upgrade chain, units can also carry various items like Larcenies or Health Stones, further increasing their damage and survivability. The only tower that has any use is the Slowing Tower, since it limits monster maneuverability and DPS slightly. Marines can stun monsters like the Bashing Tower, but much more often (since you can fit four of them in the same area that a Bashing Tower would take up) and will deal much more damage. The Potion Master has a poison effect that deals as much DPS as a fully-stacked Critical Tower poison effect. Bodyguards and Siege Machines have much more health and armor than any tower, and deal decent DPS too.

I like Nevo's new idea of building towers. This will cut down on the time and lumber cost of towers significantly. But they still need either a major buff or the ability to be transmuted to be comparable to units. Or units need a significant nerf. Both damage types lose to heroes, anyway.

[Sieghart93]

We are planning to re-work the Towers entirely so that instead of have multiple upgrades from building to building. You would simply upgrade once from the basic tower and research upgrades. This would benefit all your towers equally and if the towers are destroyed, you won't have a problem rebuilding them. We would create a new Towers Tab in Command Center that would feature upgrades like Attack Damage, Attack Speed, Attack Range, HP Bonus, etc.

 

This will probably be developed for 6.54 and as you can imagine require a lot of beta testing and tweaking.

exactly as i wished @ but in term of logics... excluding heroes... towers are usually should be stronger than units right?? they should receive from buff 1st even (after 3rd-4th uprades) before uprading (from command center) since its a big disadvantges as *a tower cannot moves* and it eats 4 spaces while its still weaker compare to units

[Ethaw]

@12th Archivist

I agree with your conclusion about towers being way less efficient than units (a rework of towers has to be done, it's just a question of time)

But your data is quite wrong... I picked some random units to test your numbers (I don't take into account the variance of damage, below are the raw base damage, but it is still closer to the real value than yours)

 

Unit	Raw damage	Cd	DPS
Light marine	154	1	154
Potion's master	200	1	200
Sniper	614	2.75	223

 

Ps: Yes the sniper is pure garbage given the price, units need a rework as well...

Ps²: What did you use to make your table?

[Sieghart93]

well.....we should consider sniper ranges as a factor for its price..

Its can be useful when ur front gate has limited spaces?

[Waffle(est)]

range does have value of its own.

 

also some units got super low range (eg lvl1 marines got like 300?) so they need be very close to walls to be useful. tho yes they are op dps for the price.

[Ethaw]

Of course other factors add to the price, but you have to agree the sniper DPS is ridiculous.

Anyway, that wasn't the main point of my previous post.

 

Ps. When I'll have the time I'll post something in the dev forum to show you how unbalanced units are.