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Tower power-up?


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#1 Sieghart93

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 04:38 AM

say.... arent the towers getting useless and uselesser as time goess @? (well except manaburn and slow tower)  impossible above.... and specially against air bosses....most people are getting units or hero with item else it wouldve be impossible to win over the bosses on last 20 minute..

Would it be good to revive the uses of towers ? such as further unlocking unique skills or uprades on damages.... personally i would like a new hero which is turrets related...with ability to create special turrets which can only be use with that hero around.. maybe couldve apply the same system like the map *Power TD* or watever the map calls again..... where the towers has to be provided by mana to be active (attack/skills)  in this case the hero... or just as the old homunculus ...semi-hero? or watever that calls... with stats by following the main hero or certain condition..

Or allow the transmutation of towers which can make them save more spaces +.+



#2 englocked

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 06:41 AM

They have their use. They are the cheapest source of dps early game and their "magic abilites" stay useful late game. 

 

That said I do agree that they are not very useful late game in terms of dps. I think the tower mechanic upgrades should be reworked. Right now they don't seem to do enough and it takes too long to get all of them (never quite understood the love for all these countless upgrades). On the other hand, buying items is instant and very effective.

 

I think transmutation of towers would certainly make them more useful but also too strong early game.


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#3 12th Archivist

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 02:13 PM

Being able to transmute towers could be another team upgrade. It could cost 10 gold and 500 lumber, which would make it the most expensive upgrade in that list, but also very unlikely to be researched too early in the game.

 

I'm coming up with a chart of dps/square so that we can better compare all the dps sources, and just how good (and bad) each one is. But given the current state of things, I would not be surprised if most if not all towers ranked lower than units.


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#4 Nevo

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 08:22 PM

We are planning to re-work the Towers entirely so that instead of have multiple upgrades from building to building. You would simply upgrade once from the basic tower and research upgrades. This would benefit all your towers equally and if the towers are destroyed, you won't have a problem rebuilding them. We would create a new Towers Tab in Command Center that would feature upgrades like Attack Damage, Attack Speed, Attack Range, HP Bonus, etc.

 

This will probably be developed for 6.54 and as you can imagine require a lot of beta testing and tweaking.


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#5 12th Archivist

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 10:09 PM

Here's my list of damage per second for all the towers (except anti-air) per square, where a square is equal to the area that could fit a tiny lumber mill. Since all towers take up four squares of area, each DPS result has been divided by four. These values were taken by the equation: dps = (average damage) / [ (time to attack ten times) / (10) ] . These values assume that the towers have had no upgrades, nor are being affected by any auras. It is assumed that 1 gold is equal to 50 lumber.


High Damage Tower DPS Lumber                         Slowing Tower DPS Lumber                         Shocking Tower DPS Lumber
Flame Turret 53 0                         Frost Tower 17 0                         Tesla Coil 14 0
Blaze Turret 61 0                         Ice Tower 28 5                         Fusion Coil 25 0
Lava Turret 78 2                         Chill Tower 33 15                         Voltage Coil 42 2
Volcano Turret 98 5                         Glacial Tower 43 30                         Shocking Coil 64 5
Inferno Turret 121 15                         Ice Age Tower 49 100                         Thunder 82 30
Hell Turret 137 30                         - - -                         Jolt 105 30
Draco Turret 159 100                         - - -                         Lightning Coil 127 100

Bashing Tower DPS Lumber                         Basic Tower DPS Lumber                         Critical Tower** DPS Lumber
Rock Thrower 27 0                         Arrow Tower 4 0                         Novice Assassin 29 0
Stone Thrower 32 0                         Spike Tower 6 0                         Accomplished Assassin 33 0
Boulder Thrower 41 2                         Dart Tower 10 0                         Adept Assassin 41 2
Gravel Thrower 51 5                         Bolt Tower 13 0                         Skilled Assassin 49 5
Mountain Thrower 60 15                         Pike Tower 16 0                         Expert Assassin 61 15
Earth Thrower 75 100                         Harpoon Tower 20 1                         Master Assassin 86 30
- - -                         Lance Tower 24 2                         Shadow Assassin 102 100
- - -                         Spear Tower 29 3                         - - -
- - -                         Javelin Tower 33 4                         - - -
- - -                         Arrowstorm Tower 47 - 186 * 4                         - - -

* The Arrowstorm Tower can attack between 1 and 4 targets at a time.

** Critical Towers deal 2/3 DPS to normal enemies and 3/2 DPS to bosses.



Magic Tower* DPS Lumber                         Unique Tower** DPS Lumber                         Long Range Tower DPS Lumber
Arcane Tower 32 0                         Peasant Launcher 30 0                         Gravity Disruptor 29 0
Mystic Tower 37 5                         Peon Launcher 39 2                         Gravity Shifter 14 2
Enigmatic Tower 47 15                         Penguin Launcher 52 5                         Gravity Spire 25 5
Enchanted Tower 57 30                         Panda Launcher 67 15                         Gravity Splicer 45 15
Diabolic Tower 70 100                         Pony Launcher 87 30                         Gravity Accelerator 74 30
- - -                         Infernal Launcher 107 100                         Gravity Fabricator 92 100

* Magic Towers deal additional damage by burning mana, and can deal up to 3 additional points of damage for every unit of mana burned. This DPS boost has not been included here.

** Unique Towers deal considerable splash damage, which has not been considered. The DPS listed is for damage dealt to a single non-boss target. Bosses take 1/2 DPS from Unique Towers.


These are the values of all the recruitable units I could find. Every unit except for the Military Tank takes up a single square, so their DPS values are unchanged. Every unit is benefiting from all ranks of Short Range Mastery or Long Range Mastery. (Getting every Tower Mechanics upgrade takes 5150 lumber and at least 20 minutes of back-to-back upgrading, and I rarely see anybody get even the first rank of it. Getting every rank of both Short Range Mastery and Long Range Mastery only requires 450 lumber and about 2 minutes of upgrading, and I see a lot more people get these.)

Unit DPS Lumber                         Unit DPS Unit                         Unit DPS Lumber
Light Marine 398 0                         Medium Marine 442 0                         Heavy Marine 530 50
Potion Master 509 4                         Exterminator 1367 20                         Firebat 309 50
Rocketeer 633 125                         Sniper 322 125                         Military Tank 303 1500
Swordsman 1291 4                         Bodyguard 63 4                         Gladiator 1796 10
Siege Machine 628 50                         - - -                         - - -


In conclusion, it's pretty clear that units do vastly more damage AND are far more cost effective than any tower. Even the Light Marine, which is completely free, deals more than twice as much damage as the final upgrade of the so-called "high-damage" towers. Units are also trained faster than towers upgrade. With the Inventory Bonus upgrade chain, units can also carry various items like Larcenies or Health Stones, further increasing their damage and survivability. The only tower that has any use is the Slowing Tower, since it limits monster maneuverability and DPS slightly. Marines can stun monsters like the Bashing Tower, but much more often (since you can fit four of them in the same area that a Bashing Tower would take up) and will deal much more damage. The Potion Master has a poison effect that deals as much DPS as a fully-stacked Critical Tower poison effect. Bodyguards and Siege Machines have much more health and armor than any tower, and deal decent DPS too.

I like Nevo's new idea of building towers. This will cut down on the time and lumber cost of towers significantly. But they still need either a major buff or the ability to be transmuted to be comparable to units. Or units need a significant nerf. Both damage types lose to heroes, anyway.
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#6 Sieghart93

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 06:47 AM

We are planning to re-work the Towers entirely so that instead of have multiple upgrades from building to building. You would simply upgrade once from the basic tower and research upgrades. This would benefit all your towers equally and if the towers are destroyed, you won't have a problem rebuilding them. We would create a new Towers Tab in Command Center that would feature upgrades like Attack Damage, Attack Speed, Attack Range, HP Bonus, etc.

 

This will probably be developed for 6.54 and as you can imagine require a lot of beta testing and tweaking.

exactly as i wished @ but in term of logics... excluding heroes... towers are usually should be stronger than units right?? they should receive from buff 1st even (after 3rd-4th uprades) before uprading (from command center) since its a big disadvantges as *a tower cannot moves* and it eats 4 spaces while its still weaker compare to units



#7 Ethaw

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 03:59 PM

@12th Archivist

I agree with your conclusion about towers being way less efficient than units (a rework of towers has to be done, it's just a question of time)

But your data is quite wrong... I picked some random units to test your numbers (I don't take into account the variance of damage, below are the raw base damage, but it is still closer to the real value than yours)

 

Unit Raw damage Cd DPS
Light marine 154 1 154
Potion's master 200 1 200
Sniper 614 2.75 223

 

Ps: Yes the sniper is pure garbage given the price, units need a rework as well...

Ps²: What did you use to make your table?



#8 Sieghart93

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 12:20 AM

well.....we should consider sniper ranges as a factor for its price..

Its can be useful when ur front gate has limited spaces?



#9 Waffle(est)

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 05:49 AM

range does have value of its own.

 

also some units got super low range (eg lvl1 marines got like 300?) so they need be very close to walls to be useful. tho yes they are op dps for the price.



#10 Ethaw

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 05:34 PM

Of course other factors add to the price, but you have to agree the sniper DPS is ridiculous.

Anyway, that wasn't the main point of my previous post.

 

Ps. When I'll have the time I'll post something in the dev forum to show you how unbalanced units are.






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