13 replies to this topic

[XFission]

I was thinking there should be an angel hero who like the astronamer can summon a golem, and has a divine shield, but is also a melee hero, can cast flame strike and healing wave on buildings and units, and also has a ressurection spell with a really long cooldown, these models can be found at the hive workshop  New Fortress Survival Hero.JPG   182.48KB   0 downloads

Edited by XFission, 12 June 2014 - 05:26 PM.

[Baby Michael]

Yeah that sounds look a great idea.  

 

Looking at your picture though, those look like 2 imported models. We don't like to do imported models anymore

We want to prevent the map size from getting too big.

 

Adding another hero to the game is always on my mind, but it is A LOT of work

[Zer0o]

We don't like to do imported models anymore

We want to prevent the map size from getting too big.

Mind asking me why though? I noticed that the map size was already reduced in the newer versions but in all honesty I dont really recall a reason. Of course, lowering the file size has several advantages like reduced loading time (FS loading time is at like 2-3 minutes for me ever since 6.10 -> Havent noticed any difference whatsoever except that it probably got even longer so Imo its neglectable) and reduced download time but Im interested to know what goals your pursuing with this.

[TheFilthyRat]

Truthfully I'm not sure how much that model would match the overall theme of the map and the other heros that we have currently in the map.

[Waffle(est)]

Aurrently all map size reductionns have basicalyl been from the following reasons:

• me refactoring a shit ton of triggers so theres not huge walls of texts copy-pasted a thousand times..
  • (sad i still got lots of work ahead of me..)
• Added a second pass to map optimiser that cathes some things the Vex one doesn't.
• (anything i forgot? remind me then )

 

 

 

map size issues are:

1. there is a hard limit of 8 megabytes that if you go above it.. you will no longer be able to play on battle.net!
   1. We already above the original 4MB limit in the unprotected map!
2. map size dramatically increases loading times
3. map size dramatically increases map download times..
   1. imagine you have a 1Mb connection.. quite common..(and thats way ABOVE what war3 was designed for btw.. stop whining...)(also i got a 10Mb one so stop whining bout that too..)
   2. now since youre a home user thats prolly ADSL so you actualyl get about 1/8 the upload.. so about 125 Kib upload.. (thats what A stands for...)
   3. now thats bits per seccond.. map size is measured in Bytes so letts convert.. 125Kib/8(size of byte)= 15 KiB/s
   4. presuming you have access to ALL of the bandwith and youre isp is not even slightly scewing you over.. (unrealistic... tho more so in the US than europe..)
   5. that means 4000/15= 266 seconds just for 1 person to download the map..
   6. thus even in ideal conditions for a person on home internet to host the map is already VERY painful.. because the upload speeds are so painfully slow..
   7. unless you play with a lone friend you could spend a hour just trying to upload the map to the numerous i-cant-wait-for-you're-"stupid"-internet-leavers and still not be able to start a game with more than 3 ppl.
4. given the above i think its obvious we've already been very careless with the size and its rly bout tiem we least tried to reel it in..

[TheDwarfLard]

I'm not quoting all of that, but even though I don't really have a source on this, I see many people downloading maps at around 100 KiB/s (although I saw someone download a map at like 5 KiB/s once...). Not sure if I'm not reading that right or what, but I think it's higher than what you assume.

[Zer0o]

• Well to clean up all the code in the map will probably take ages cause so many devs worked on it and somehow no one ever bothered to clean the previous mess up or at least re-write older code lol
• Makes sense, given the fact that you guys are over 4mb already I suppose that it does its job pretty well eh?
• Dunno, you tell me   Deleting old imported stuff like unused effects or models probably affected it as well though, that is if there even is anything unused left 

 

Actually 8.192 Kb   But yeah, understandable that you dont want to hit that limit.

It does indeed increase it but its not the major reason as to why the loading time is so high. Never really tested what the major causes for it are but imo the custom objects (aka custom units, effects, doodads, abilites, destroyable objects, etc) are increasing it the most. When looking at the amount of objects FS 6.1 has (Latest unprotected ver I have, so the amount probably has changed abit), it makes sense that loading takes a while. 

 

 

I'll compare it to MS, the map has 621 custom objects (+22 edited standard ones), 412 triggers and abit less than 8.000 doodads (Including normal and destroyable ones) = Loading time is approximately 30-40 seconds.

Now to FS 6.10, it has 1.465 custom objects (+130 edited standard ones), 1057 triggers and 6.500 doodads in total, same as above = Loading time is approximately 120 - 180 seconds.

 

Map size of MS = 5.244KB without any optimization; map size of FS 6.10 = 4.293KB without any optimization as well - so although FS is almost 1MB smaller the loading time is still alot higher.

 

 

Now of course there are other factors that affect the loading time which I havent covered up there but Im too tired atm to compare everything and writing a wall of text so its up to you but I think you get where Im coming from.

 

In terms of download times: People can always download the map at the forums or MMH.com, there are other things that you should care about than the few people who have to download the map once to be able to play it, at least in my opinion.

[Waffle(est)]

you forget the amount of junk code in fs map..

like 200 semi identical trigger just for spawns?

 

also you cant download faster than the other guy uploads..

so if you play on ghost++ on some big bot.. you are in downlaod heaven..

private players are hurt tho.. and nobody bothers go to a website to download a map they never playd..

[XFission]

Truthfully I'm not sure how much that model would match the overall theme of the map and the other heros that we have currently in the map.

Yeah ive already talked to nevo about this idea, not gonna happen, he says hes not going to import more models, but thats why about 30-40 min ago i posted a new idea for a warden hero using the maiev model, i was thinking maybe there should be a melee hero. But thats just my thoughts.

[Zer0o]

you forget the amount of junk code in fs map..

like 200 semi identical trigger just for spawns? 

 

Ah yeah I remember that mess.. well if you want to optimize the code someone has to rewrite all of that someday I guess although I fear that its pretty much unavoidable to have a load of triggers which only affect spawns. Though 200 is way over the top ofc lol.

 

Just keep in mind that map size doesnt affect the loading time nearly as much as triggers or custom objects in general do, imo its more than fine to have some imported models in a map, especially since the map benefits alot from them (well.. most of the time). Especially when looking at the terraining aspect of maps, I hate the repetitiveness of the standard blizzard models + you can do alot more stuff if you have the fitting models 

 

 

In terms of the download thing; I rarely see a player who needs longer than 1--2 minutes to download any map, even the bigger ones who already hit the map size limit. And, at least in my experience, 80% of them stay in the game afterwards to play the map. Also you only have to do it once so imo it shouldnt affect the development that much.

If someone wants to play a map like FS, that someone will stay in the game and download the map, the guys who just leave because the download takes abit too long probably wouldnt have played it anyway simply because they werent interested, else they would've stayed 2 minutes lol.

[Waffle(est)]

im already in the process of refactoring that.

will bring it down to 1.00 spawn triggers total

 

 

Also let me tell you about a fallacy you suffer..

You say "probably" , it sounds like "always" but it actually means "I don't know" and "The opposite also happens".

 

and since we do care that more people find the map... that matters to us. we will not scare of new players just cuz we are smug.

[Zer0o]

Woah woah woah, take it easy there, no need to become hostile all of sudden.

 

Oh well, might as well explain everything in detail so brace yourselves: Incoming wall of text.

So first of all I didnt intend to insult your reasons as to why you're reducing the file size of the map so drastically, I was just curious as to why you're pursuing said goal due to the fact that I noticed how low the file already is, compared to previous versions. 

 

As for my "fallacy I suffer", I always emphasized that Im talking about the stuff that I saw and heard about others in the years that Im already playing wc3 - aka my experience - so I wouldnt necessarily call myself inexperienced or ignorant in that department. And of course the opposite also happens, thats why I said "80%" and not "all the time". I also emphasized several times that Im talking about my opinion, something that no one ever should denote as omniscient in any way - Im saying what Im thinking, maybe abit too freely but definitely not in a insulting way.

 

Everyone has a different opinion on how to handle different things although its never bad to discuss different matters and this is obviously what Im doing here. This is also something everyone should consider on doing, thinking that your way is the best one available definitely wont bring you far - you have to be open to learn new things. Also before you accuse me of thinking that the way I handle things regaring this topic is the best - I definitely dont think that at all.

Me saying that doesnt mean that Im not open to new things and opinions - everyone can freely tell me what they think about the stuff I say and if Im convinced I'll reconsider the way I handle the subject. Now, I can see that you accuse me of being "smug" because of how I handle the download times but in all honesty thats what I think about it. But if you honestly believe that I wouldnt care about that topic and, in the end, about the players at all then you're just plain wrong. Because the answer to that is relatively simple: If the players arent satisfied then no one will play the map - end of story.

 

If you're wondering why Im thinking what Im thinking regarding the download times I can give you the answer to that. FS is suffering problems like every other map out there - that is undeniable. And before anyone accuses me of thinking that my maps are better than everyone elses (Yes, I can actually see that happening), I do not think that. If anyone is wondering Im not satisfied with my maps in any way, but thats a different topic.

Anyway, what I like to do irl and especially during the development is setting priorities. Everyone does this in a different way, for example in terms of developing maps there are dev's who first want to create as much content as possible and then fixing the bugs which always appear afterwards. Others prioritize gameplay over appearance. In my opinion, whether you want to hear it or not, FS mostly suffers from balancing. Bosses are getting buffed (Nothing wrong there, not at all) while the normal creeps stay the same. Now, I dont want to go into detail about the balancing problem here but as you can see I prioritize that over map size or "finding new players", if I may quote you. Simply because gameplay is more important to me than the time it takes to download the map, even if players have to do that before even playing it.

 

So thats basically it, if someone wants to he is free to tell me that Im smug and an idiot or something. I wrote down what I think and now its up to anyone who reads this to judge me for thinking it.

[Waffle(est)]

gameplay IS the priority

but putting more cruff in there wont help.. no matter how much bling you have..

 

on the contrary cutting cruff helps with gameplay..

EX:

gettig rid of 200 useless trigers -> reduce lag, enable easy control over gamespeed/spawnrate, easy to manae different creep types..

[That_Girl]

This is totally Zer0o right now!

 

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