38 replies to this topic

[strikerfreeZ]

so basically chaos mode is like faster pace and starts sending out Lt.Stealer faster alright got it

[TheFilthyRat]

It's a lot more than that. Without fortress defenders people get a lot more early game pressure so they have to prepare for that and maybe have that slow their produce and they have to spend more on defenses.  If lumber from kills wasn't awarded on chaos mode people would be getting less lumber.... the entire game would be faster paced really

[strikerfreeZ]

and super uber duper hard and can be quite a feat if beaten so if this mode comes out i wonder if there will be a special item

[bear_369]

If someone doing Nightmare, Air, Invis, Chaos. I wonder who's the only Professional FS player could beat the game with Nightmare, Air, Invis, Chaos.

[Waffle(est)]

BabyMichael and TheFilthyRat teaming would be unbeatable...

[TheFilthyRat]

A lot of people would eventually be able to beat it on nm air invis chaos. It's just about recognizing how your playstyle changes and fixing your priorities to adapt to the faster paced/harder mode

[bear_369]

Ok. If the monster started in 2mins because of Chaos mode, What is actually the time that the monsters started with no Chaos mode? 4 mins or 5 mins?

[TheDwarfLard]

Ok. If the monster started in 2mins because of Chaos mode, What is actually the time that the monsters started with no Chaos mode? 4 mins or 5 mins?

As soon as the game finishes loading and you can move/select difficulties, you have 5 minutes to run around and build until the actual spawning starts. Or I could say you have 0 minutes 0 seconds, because in the intro, some enemies spawn.

[Ve1ro]

The reward should be a permanent alchemist unit summon item. a permanent unit, not a hero.

this will promote the use of other heros at the same time as being an awesome reward

[SoiSoi]

I do like the idea of "Chaos/Insanity" mode, especially the bit about having no defenders.  I can only imagine the rage and butthurt people will spew when they can't mad-dash to Security Room or Library for alchemists!

 

With that being said, here's a suggestion branching from "Chaos/Insanity" mode, and it could be a short-term event, it could be a contest, it could be just another stupid idea that you throw away, but here ya go (please forgive my WoW-styled rhetoric for this):

 

Fortress Survival Alpha: Isolation

 

"Brave Fortress Survivors, you have been cut off from any sort of reinforcements.  We have tried sending all that we could, but they cannot get to you; there are simply too many monsters to break through.  You must survive on your own until we can find an alternative to get you out."

 

Will you still have what it takes to survive..?

• New mode [or whatever you'd like to call it] in Fortress Survival: Isolation!


• All Fortress defenses and reinforcements will be gone, meaning all units previously available in-base or via the Mercenary Tent (marines, alchemists, exterminators, etc.) are unavailable for support or training.


• Heroes will not be able to be summoned in Isolation mode (this includes [or can include cuz I know some people will be up in arms about that XD] custom heroes)!  You must use your survivor's cunning, determination, and skills to make it through this dark hour until reinforcements find an alternative extraction method.


• All difficulties and modes will still be available (with Isolation included as an additional option).  Try to win on the highest difficulty possible, and claim a prize[?]!


• The timing of spawns will be reduced from five minutes to three minutes since monsters will only have you to worry about.  To offset this, their damage will be reduced (by what factors would be up to you guys).


• Rediscovered tower tree: Steam Tank! [I only say this since, when I first started a couple of years ago, tanks were a big favorite among some players I teamed with; maybe it'd be a bit of nostalgia for some to see it come back?  Think of it as a salvaged old recipe?]


• [Other bits of mish-mosh and suggestions and cool stuffs!]

And there ya go!  :X  I'll be over here, hiding, in case y'all need me.

[TheDwarfLard]

That's definitely an interesting idea SoiSoi, but I'd hope you weren't thinking of killing Eternia being part of the requirement for whatever the prize might be, that would probably be impossible without heroes/units.

 

Do like the no-units aspect, but would it include all 3 tiers of the building (examples listed were only from Merc HQ, so just wondering).

 

Above all, would probably make people think what towers are best positioned at different spots and choose which ones they like (I see some people who have no idea what most of the towers do).

[SoiSoi]

That's definitely an interesting idea SoiSoi, but I'd hope you weren't thinking of killing Eternia being part of the requirement for whatever the prize might be, that would probably be impossible without heroes/units.

Oh Gods, no!  No Eternia boss, I would think the final boss would be either Najort or Behemoth.

 

 

Do like the no-units aspect, but would it include all 3 tiers of the building (examples listed were only from Merc HQ, so just wondering).

Yes, meaning that you'd have no access to any of the units from any of the Tent tiers or any of the heroes on the CC tab.

 

Above all, would probably make people think what towers are best positioned at different spots and choose which ones they like (I see some people who have no idea what most of the towers do).

That's what I'm figuring and hoping, that people stop relying so much on given units who may or may not be too souped up for words.  I'm noticing people who don't even tower anymore because they have Commander already, or when they do tower, they only use two types: Assassin and Flame.  I absolutely love using a variety of towers because I love what each one can do, especially in the recent-ish patches where they got ultimate abilities.  I just wish more people would see that, would recognize that, and utilize that.  

[TheFilthyRat]

People don't use a variety of towers because not using a certain tower in bulk is almost pointless like having 1 stone thrower tower would be pointless. 1 lightning tower would be pointless and they are pointless because they do nothing when trojan and behemoth go immune to tower. No point in having 1 peasant launcher ETC. Also the only thing you added on that wasn't included in the original Choas mode discussion was no heros or units, but I doubt anyone would really ever want to play that mode exclusively because heros are why people take the time to rank up and ultimately play the game. In the end not having heros just unbalances the game too much

[SoiSoi]

People don't use a variety of towers because not using a certain tower in bulk is almost pointless like having 1 stone thrower tower would be pointless. 1 lightning tower would be pointless and they are pointless because they do nothing when trojan and behemoth go immune to tower. No point in having 1 peasant launcher ETC.

Well, let's be honest, if you're only using one of each tower, then yes, it is pointless and you are doing something incredibly wrong.  That's not what I meant when talking about having variety in towers.  For example, when I base in D-21, I can use up to eight tower types, with each one being utilized for specific, non-wasteful purposes - and I can succeed and be very satisfied.  That's what I mean when talking about variety, not just using one of each "cuz it's kewl".

 

Also the only thing you added on that wasn't included in the original Choas mode discussion was no heros or units, but I doubt anyone would really ever want to play that mode exclusively because heros are why people take the time to rank up and ultimately play the game. In the end not having heros just unbalances the game too much

Well, firstly, that's why I said "branching off the idea", not "I'VE GOT A BRAND NEW IDEA GAIZ AND ITS SO ORIGINAL!!!".  So yeah, there's that...

 

Regardless, therein lies the problem: People relying too heavily on one specific element or another instead of having a full understanding of what the game is about; the fact that people start to think "Oh if I level and rank up, I can just get Commander, spam troopers, and go into ez-moad".   That's exactly why I brought up this suggestion (and an optional one at that!).  I never said people would flock to it, nor did I say that it was a mandatory mode like choosing Nightmare; it would be optional, meant for people who want an extra challenge.  I disagree and think that having this kind of challenge would provide a better balance for the aforementioned reasons of not having to rely just on Commander heroes, or overpowered Custom Heroes like many people have done recently.

 

One thing I will concede is that, yes, without alchemists, it would be incredibly difficult to obtain Level 7 mills.  However, I would think that with the rebalancing of monster health and damage, having multiple Level 5 mills would be sufficient.  But again, I can't stress this enough, that's why it would be an optional mode.

[TheFilthyRat]

Take a minute or two to realize what you're suggesting. Without any form of transmute available the only way to effciently make level 5 lumber mills is without any repair factories at all because no transmute, that would make creating a level 7 lumber mill impossible because they need to be transmuted . Without any form of transmute and while only having to rely on towers for damage many bases get a disadvantag and become unplayable on nightmare and probably impossible. Moreover, bases with small tower builds that somehow managed to survive would be destroyed by air bosses because they wouldn't have enough damage and even builds with 20 towers would have multiple towers destroyed by mid and endgame flying bosses. In addition, people can't EZ mode Commander in 6.43 beta or 6.43 official because paratroopers were nerfed so you would need elemental stone and a considerable amount of kills.

 

 

 

Other thoughts about this idea. Eternia wouldn't be killable, Trojan/narjot/beheemoth would only be killable in a small number of bases. Nerfing creatures/bosses to make up for the no heros is a lot of work for a small side mode. Pros still wouldn't have enough things to spend their lumber on and with only towers they would just have tons of pointless lumber and nothing to spend it on with no remaining room to tower. There were versions of this game with no heros/ no form of transmute if you remember the old ones and I've gone back and played them/beat them and it was very boring to tell you the truth

[HellfireJimson]

[*]Rediscovered tower tree: Steam Tank! [I only say this since, when I first started a couple of years ago, tanks were a big favorite among some players I teamed with; maybe it'd be a bit of nostalgia for some to see it come back? Think of it as a salvaged old recipe?][/*][*][Other bits of mish-mosh and suggestions and cool stuffs!][/*][/LIST]And there ya go! :X I'll be over here, hiding, in case y'all need me.

Sorry to interupt this heated debate with my hopes and dreams but please bring back the steam tank... So many memories... get rid of that useless magic tower and bring back this Gem of a tower... My heart longs for its return. Steam Tank lovers unite!!
I swear that wasnt sarcasm..seriously lol STEAMTANK MOTHER F..KER!!!!

Edited by HellfireJimson, 14 January 2014 - 05:05 PM.

[TheFilthyRat]

The magic tower is in the game for a reason and will serve it's own unique purpose soon enough once we get around to finding a balanced and meaningful update for it.  As for the steam tank, based off of what the steam tank does normally it wouldn't be anything more than a slow attacking tower with splash damage which is already what the peasant launcher tower does sorry to break it to you

[SoiSoi]

Take a minute or two to realize what you're suggesting. Without any form of transmute available the only way to effciently make level 5 lumber mills is without any repair factories at all because no transmute, that would make creating a level 7 lumber mill impossible because they need to be transmuted . Without any form of transmute and while only having to rely on towers for damage many bases get a disadvantag and become unplayable on nightmare and probably impossible.

 

I already addressed that.  Yes, level 5s would probably be your best bet, but making them with repair factories would still be very possible and helpful while not absolutely necessary to transmute them unless you pick a super small-sized base.  Because of that, people might actually be more convinced to team up in larger-sized bases, which is great considering this is a team-based survival game, after all, right?  Further, relying only on towers has already been done in the past and proven to still be effective, so I fail to see the issue there.  I'm more than certain that it can be pulled off.

 

 

Moreover, bases with small tower builds that somehow managed to survive would be destroyed by air bosses because they wouldn't have enough damage and even builds with 20 towers would have multiple towers destroyed by mid and endgame flying bosses. In addition, people can't EZ mode Commander in 6.43 beta or 6.43 official because paratroopers were nerfed so you would need elemental stone and a considerable amount of kills.

 

Something I've noticed, actually, about flying units of 6.42 and 6.43 is that, even when one builds walls to soak up damage from flying units, they go straight for the towers or repair units, or really anything else except the wall you build.  This was not an issue in past versions, and I wish I knew what happened that caused this.  Otherwise, no, flying units would not be an issue.  If you pick a small base and utilize a small tower build and are not successful, then that would, again, encourage more team-based play in larger bases.

 

Other thoughts about this idea. Eternia wouldn't be killable, Trojan/narjot/beheemoth would only be killable in a small number of bases. Nerfing creatures/bosses to make up for the no heros is a lot of work for a small side mode.

 

Another thing I already addressed.  Please read previous post addressing that.  And if the mobs can be scaled based on difficulty, what would make it much more difficult to scale them for the optional mode?  That is not to bash the developers or undermine what they do, not at all, but seeing as I am not one I actually do wonder if it would indeed make it so much more difficult to work on.

 

 

Pros still wouldn't have enough things to spend their lumber on and with only towers they would just have tons of pointless lumber and nothing to spend it on with no remaining room to tower. There were versions of this game with no heros/ no form of transmute if you remember the old ones and I've gone back and played them/beat them and it was very boring to tell you the truth

 

So let me get this straight, you bash how difficult it would be to have towers only, you bash how it would be virtually undoable in more difficult modes because of mill production... And then come right back around and say that not only would "pros" be producing more than they can spend, but that it would be too easy and boring like previous versions were.  That... That just seems incredibly, what's the word I'm looking for... Oxymoronic?  Hypocritical?  I'm not sure, but it doesn't make sense, that's for sure!  As far as spending the lumber you get, I'm all but certain that aforementioned "pros" in recent versions still have trouble finding what to spend lumber on, especially in endgame and especially with how much the high-tier mills produce (unless you want a full inventory of Black Larcenies and over 9000 tomes!), so how would be it much different in this mode as opposed to what's already going on?  I mean, feel free to call me crazy if I'm wrong, but that's what I see from "pros" I've played with.

 

And even on your comment of previous versions being incredibly boring, I highly disagree, but I also understand that it is more a matter of opinion than a fact able to be fixed.  Me, I found previous versions like 4.8 and 5.0 to be so much fun, it's what got me involved with the clan and its players in the first place!  Seeing its recent evolution and where it's gone, I still find it fun, yes, but I do believe that players have been, in a way, spoiled with certain elements that have been implemented (like the elemental stone).  But again, that is a matter of opinion, not something with a fix-all solution.  If you find the old versions boring and these versions boring and too easy and suggested challenge modes boring (yet unbeatable..?  I'm still perplexed on that...), then good for you, it shows your skill in Fortress Survival, and you can pat yourself on the back for it.

 

Also, if I may address Jim's point:

 

 

get rid of that useless magic tower and bring back this Gem of a tower... My heart longs for its return. Steam Tank lovers unite!

 

I actually find the magic tower to be anything but useless, as it's saved my ass from bosses like Stealer or Shadow by sapping mana and preventing endless Divine Shield procs.  I'm also biased cuz it was my first and only suggestion that made it into developed gameplay, but that's besides the point!  

[TheFilthyRat]

I wasn't really being hypocritical as I was simply stating a fact. The combination of less base space and lower damage from no heros and little room for towers setups would make a variety of bases around the map unplayable. Also I would love to see a replay of you playing 6.43 or 6.42 nightmare walling while making a level 7 lumber mill without transmuting because you would need to take the full 35 seconds to build 64 lumber mills in a big enough area which very few bases are going to have and it would take over 20 minutes alone to do that. Of course it can be  done but that is no way effcient

The main challenge with doing anything like this is that all mobs and bosses would have to be modified for all difficulties simply for this  one side mode .

Other problems with this idea. Many bases around the map would be unplayable on higher difficulties because of size and on the surface one the most important thing about a base would be size and bases provide a much more unique advantage currently. Even if people do team base the game play is still boring because after the waller makes towers he can't be be involved directly in any way with his defense. He's just stuck sitting there upgrading towers and waiting for lumber for defenses and if your wall is close to dying you can't do anything because no units/no heros. With no hero/item/unit management there is just a lot less to do which slows the game speed down a lot.

The game play would get more boring as the game progresses and it would progress quick because the waller can't do anything other than sit and upgrade after he's done building his tower setup.  A lumberer could just shift click an insane amount of mills and just have to sit there with nothing else to focus on and again I don't see how this is fun. This mode would discourage chain basing when the developers are trying to put back more focus on that. You gain firepower through closer units and heros by chain basing and I can guarantee you no one would chain base in this version because it wouldn't be effective at all when you only have towers for damage. The only tower setup that would be effect across multiple entrances would be where the entrances are closer together and all towers are in range of each other. Also base expansion isn't possible in this version.

 

 

It's very easy to dump all your lumber in 6.43 with cursed larcenies/more expensive repair keys/more expensive tomes. If someone can't find something to spend all their lumber on then they don't know what they're doing at least in 6.43 where your concern about EZ MOAD commander has already been addressed.  If you want to try and get serious support for this Idea I suggest making a different thread for it