5 replies to this topic

[mv1990]

So... Can someone help me understand what are those rates that a builder has such as powerbuild and build ratio.

% Efficiency is easy to understand --> the greater the faster. For example: what we used to see on repair unit/factories/bots.

Powerbuild = basic building speed of builder only?

Build ratio 1.00, 1.10 = ?

 

I can understand if build ratio 1.00 (custom builder)  is faster than 1.10 (regular); however, I don't understand why regular builder has 27% efficiency while custom builder only has 25%. . . . . . . . . . custom builder build slower than regular builder? Unless there's a weird formula that the %efficiency has to be adjust/lower to balance the 0.1 build ratio difference while custom builder still build faster with 25% efficiency?... (Make no sense if custom builder build slower . . .)

 

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So I have played a game on Easiest mode without builder actually build any lumber mill...just for fun. I got a level 5 from barrel at between 10~20 minutes remaining time. I failed to kill Tyrant by 2k health points left on Tyrant. Maybe I could have killed Tyrant by using Shadow Sniper instead of Medic.

 

 

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[Nevo]

Powerbuild Cost is when many workers build/repair same unit - it determines additional cost.

 

Powerbuild Rate is when many workers build/repair same unit - it speeds up progress.

Repair Cost Ratio determines global cost of repair for repaired unit (It is calculated from repaired building cost).

Repair Time Ratio determines how fast a worker can repair damaged unit (Repair time is calculated from unit's construction time).

[KeXi]

You can think rate as a speed of doing something.

For example a lumbermill takes 35s to build up with default rate of 1,0 (base buildtime).
But if the rate gets higher (speed increases), that lumbermill gets finished faster.
You can calculate almost 100% accurate estimate of total buildtime if you know rates of all units building/powerbuilding. If a unit is helping, it's powerbuilding. There is usually small mistake because of powerbuilders "thinking time", but it's really marginal, like 0,5% or similar.

Total buildtime = buildtime / (rate 1 + rate 2 + ... + rate last)

Some rates:
Builder 1,0
Custom builder 1,1
Repair factory 0,5
Repair unit lvl 1 0,55
Repair unit lvl 6 0,85

Lets have an example of how long would it take from normal builder to build a lumbermill with assist of 8 repair factories. Sum of rates inside branches would be 1,0 + 8*0,5 = 5. So, that's the total rate the lumbermill is being built.
Total buildtime = 35s / 5,0 = 7s.

How about same setup with custom builder?
Total rate is increased by 0,1 from 5,0 to 5,1.
Total buildtime = 35s / 5,1 = 6,86s.

8 repair units (lvl 1) + normal builder?
Total buildtime = 35s / (8*0,55 + 1,0) = 6,48s.

8 Upgraded repair units (lvl 6) + custom builder?
Total buildtime = 35s / (8*0,85 + 1,1) = 4,43s.

I hope it's more understandable than my last explanation

[mv1990]

I feel bad... but I really want to make it clear, and here's my thought:

 

Nevo said: repair time ratio = how fast a builder can repair damaged unit.

@Kexi, what you said make sense, only if the number is just an example, not directly from the game display where Custom builder has build rate/repair time ratio of 1.0 (not 1.1), and regular builder has build rate of 1.1 (not 1.0) So, for a custom builder, if 1.0 = total amount of time spend, then 1.0 is faster than 1.1 of regular builder. However, if we apply 1.0 rate of custom builder in your equation/formula as part of denominator that you think custom builder actually has 1.1 instead of 1.0 rate which doesn't make sense to me if the rates are literally the building speed (greater the faster, not time) . . . Either it's a description typo that custom builder should have 1.1 instead of 1.0 that's shown on my screen..., or it has another formula besides yours. (not picky about formula, but really want to understand the correct definition that make sense to me) 

 

Also, I'm glad that Nevo and Kexi replied, but the "% rate efficiency" is still unclear. Let's say that if the rate description are typo that "build rate of 1.1 (currently the description of regular builder) SHOULD be the rate of custom build and FASTER than 1.0 (currently the description of custom builder) of regular builder instead of total amount of time needed to repair/construct a building", it would make sense to Kexi's formula. % rate efficiency should not be a question that the higher the faster where that was the only description we knew in previous versions for all repair unit/building; however, the description of custom builder only has 25% efficiency whereas regular builder has 27% ? . . . . . (that's why in my original post I mentioned/questioned if the build rate of 1.0/1.1 was total amount of time to finish a building process instead of actual build speed that the bigger the faster; and if that's the case, Kexi's formula is not correct)

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(in-game data)  custom builder has rate: 25% efficiency, power build of 0.6, repair time ratio of 1.0

 

 custom builder 1.jpg   128.17KB   0 downloads  custom builder 2.jpg   129.58KB   0 downloads  

 

regular builder has rate: 27% efficiency, power build of 0.6, repair time ratio of 1.1

 

 regular builder.jpg   125.75KB   1 downloads

 

repair factories has rate: 33% efficiency, power build of 0.5, repair time ratio of 3

 

 repair factory.jpg   134.68KB   1 downloads

 

Advanced factories has rate: 50% efficiency, power build of 0.6, (forgot about repair time, neither do I think anyone would use this to repair walls)

repair units (level 1) has rate: 33% efficiency, power build of 0.55, repair time ratio of 3

repair units (level 2) has rate: 40% efficiency, power build of 0.60, repair time ratio of 2.5

repair units (level 7) has rate: 100% efficiency, power build of 0.90, repair time ratio of 1.0

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Efficiency:

So, we don't compare building speed among different unit/building just on efficiency, but we should be able to compare efficiency among same type of units. For example: 40% efficiency of level 2 Repair Unit is > 33% efficiency of level 1 Repair Unit. Otherwise, the only difference between level 1 Repair Unit and Repair Factory is the power build, while they both have 33% efficiency and same repair rate (for damage building), and level 1 Repair Unit > Normal Repair Factory based on powerbuild (toward construction time of new building).

 

Question: does 25% efficiency of custom builder and 27% efficiency of regular builder really matter?... They have same build rate, and custom builder has faster repair rate, but.. custom builder has lower efficiency?

 

Power build:

= Building speed, not Repair speed. Custom Builder = Regular Builder. The only difference is repair time ratio toward damaged building, not construction time of new building.

 

Repair time ratio:

Amount of time needed to repair a damaged building.

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Conclusion:

We all applied the wrong data to formula and had misinterpretation about repair time ratio (when in the previous versions we only had statistics about "build rate" instead of repair time ratio on builders). Custom builder and Regular builder have same building speed, and Custom builder have greater repair speed... So, if we make suggestion in other part of forum about possible rank bonus for build speed, build speed is based on powerbuild, not rapair ratio...

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Here's the fun part:

Since we know now that powerbuild = build rate...

Thing to point out: in 6.66, ALL the Repair Bots from factories has powerbuild of 0.6; if a player use bots to speed up building process, don't need to upgrade bots.

 

Mechanics from Military base no longer has powerbuild, it has powerbuild of 0, repair ratio of 5.0 It has been proven that powerbuild of 0 doesn't help with building speed at all. . . so Tinker also cannot build in 6.65/6.66 (well, they can help you build with 0 effort, like some of your f**king coworker that may not even provide real emotional or psychological help)

 

Constructed Repair Bot in Mail room has powerbuild of 0.9 (equivalent to legendary repair unit which also has 100% efficiency), and repair ratio of 1

 

Which lumber setup is faster and more efficient? .... bottom left or bottom right?

 

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bottom left (with alternative):

8 level 1 repair units + 3 repair factories + any builder to a lumber mill = 8 x 0.55 + 3 x 0.5  + 0.6 = 4.4 + 1.5 + 0.6 = 6.5 ; 35 / 6.5 =~5.38

8 level 1 repair units + 2 repair factories + 1 advanced repair factory + any builder = 4.4 +1 + 0.6 + 0.6 = 6.6 ; 35 / 6.6 =~5.3 seconds(time to build a mill)

8 level 8 repair units + 2 repair factories + 1 advanced repair factory + builder = 8 x 1 + 2 x 0.5 + 0.6 + 0.6 = 10.2 ; 35 / 10.2 =~3.43

8 level 8 repair units + 3 advanced repair factories + builder = 8 + 3 x 0.6 + 0.6 = 10.4 ; 35 / 10.4 =~3.37

 

Cannot forget The Ultimate, although it's not possible in small base, nor wise to play alone in bigger base. We add 2 extra advanced repair factories at bottom: 8 level 8 repair units + 4 advanced repair factories + builder = 8 + 4 x 0.6 + 0.6 = 11 ; 35 / 11 =~3.18 (fastest setup I can think of at the moment)

 

bottom right (with alternative):

9 level 1 repair units + 1 repair factory + builder = 9 x 0.55 + 0.5 + 0.6 =  4.95 + 1.1 = 6.05 ; 35 / 6.05 =~5.79

9 level 8 repair units + 1 advance repair + builder = 9 x 1 + 0.6 + 0.6 = 10.2 ; 35 / 10.2 =~3.43 (same to those have 1 advance repair factory as start item without Tinker hero)

 

The True Ultimate (that's not practical/possible to use/utilize to its maximum efficiency with "think or lag time" in consideration): 8 level 8 + 4 advanced repair factories + builder + constructed repair bot from Mail room . . . 11 + 0.9 = 11.9 ; 35/ 11.9 =~2.94 /////// 2.94~3.18 (the ultimate speed)

Edited by mv1990, 06 March 2016 - 06:10 PM.

[KeXi]

There are both ratio and rate mentioned and they are each otherses multiplicative inverses (wc3 makers have decided it to be that way), which means:

rate = 1 / ratio and also, ratio = 1 / rate.

 

So if regular builder has repair ratio of 1,1 he's actual repair rate is then 1/1,1 = 0,9090... ~ 91%, which is also the mentioned efficiency. Custom builder's ratio is 1,0 and therefore also the rate is 1/1,0 = 1,0 = 100% efficiency. Tooltips were wrong there (25%, 27%).

 

Like with previous, you also made right conclusions with repair-ratios and repair-rates having nothing to do with powerbuilding and not even with building a structure from a scratch. There both normal and custom builders are using the rates of 1,0. And with powerbuilding, the rates are also 1,0 0,6. Efficiency (repair-rate) only affects repairing.

 

I admit those tooltips can get confusing, but I hope this clarifies why the 1,1 ratio was slower than 1,0 ratio. I also was wrong saying that custom builder had rate of 1,1 and regular 1,0. Both have 1,0. Also, that things wouldn't be too easy, units can build a building many different way.

 

For example tinker (build rate 1,0 , powerbuildrate 0,0) and builder (rate 1,0, powerbuildrate 0,6).

If tinker starts to build and builder powerbuilds, total rate is 1,0+0,6=1,6. (37,5% faster)

If builder starts to build and tinker powerbuilds, total rate is 1,0+0,0=1,0.

Take there another or couple of units that can build and powerbuild and you get plenty of variations out

 

So unlike in previous example, when calculating with builder and repair units/repair factories (which can only powerbuild), builder's rate is then always counted as 1,0 (building, not powerbuilding).

 

 

There is also pretty fast setup, check the "overkill setup" from this old thread. I have gotten different time on paper back then, maybe powerbuildrates have changed? But in 6.66 we would have:

- 8 x max repair unit (1,0 pbr)

- 3 x advanced repairfactory (0,6 pbr)

- builder (1,0 buildrate)

- repairbot (0,6 pbr)

- 2 x constructed repairbot (0,9 pbr)

- 2 x hovering repairbot (0,75 pbr)

 

35s / (8x1 + 3x0,6 + 1,0 + 0,6 + 2x0,9 + 2x0,75) = 2,38095.. ~ 2,38s a mill. It would be impossible to keep doing it (even mana would run out because of manapot cooldown), but just as trying to reach the theoretical maximum rate 

 

Got another interesting setup in my mind, have to test it out and might share it near days

Edited by KeXi, 07 March 2016 - 10:21 AM.
corrected powerbuildrate from 1,0 to 0,6

[mv1990]

Thanks Kexi....lol   make even more sense now. I didn't know the "basic build rate" is 1 (I thought powerbuild = any build rate). And shame on me forgot to mention the flying repair bots from item shop. Fastest ones are theoretical like you mentioned.

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I forgot to mention in my previous reply that place repair factory on the side (bottom left setup) is better than repair unit for this type of setup; no cost, same overall efficiency as 1 level 8/max repair unit in term of powerbuild. Even for lazy people who lumber 3~4 mills at a time (longer setup with 2 lines of repair units), place factories on the edge/side is still better than pure repair units (lower cost and greater efficiency at start).

 

By the way, there are 2 constructed repair bots? shame on me I couldn't find the second one, I knew that we could find 2 in mail room, but I believe they removed 1 in later versions...?  ( = . =)""  I clicked everywhere in mail room and could not find the 4th box.