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The Water Protector


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#1 Krehara

Krehara

    Dedicated Survivor




             

Posted 02 February 2016 - 08:59 PM

Something that has bothered me since it was implemented, is the water protector. It is the single most powerful tower available to the public, but I have not seen a single person actually use it. Ever. Sure, there are people who gain control of it when they claim whatever base it happens to be in, but no one upgrades it once they have it. They don't even make an effort to keep it alive. It seems that, for most people, it's just a free tower to start out with, and it's no big deal if it dies. So, let me throw out some data and make a few comparisons.

 

 

First, I need to explain how I evaluate costs. I estimate the most expensive cost of something. If it requires gold, I assume that I will need to trade in lumber for it. As the rate for doing so is 50 Lumber for 1 gold, something that costs 1G and 50L, to me would have a total lumber cost of 100L. So, here's a quick list of the upgrade costs for the water protector (column one) and a regular flame tower (column 2.)

 

Level 1=Free                                            Free  

 

Level 2=100L                                             5L

 

Level 3=750L                                            15L

 

Level 4=1500L                                          30L 

 

Level 5=2750L                                         60L

 

Level 6=5500L                                        100L

 

 

Now then, why did I choose to include the flame tower? I'll get to that in a bit. For now, let's compare the damage for each tier. This table will be laid out the same way, with the water protector in column one, and the flame tower in column 2. 

 

 

Level 1=151-155                                       184-208

 

Level 2=301-305                                       229-253

 

Level 3=701-705                                       268-292

 

Level 4=1001-1005                                   302-326

 

Level 5=1501-1505                                   339-363

 

Level 6=2501-2505                                   414-438

 

A few things to keep in mind here; both of these towers deal chaos damage, which is why I have chosen to compare them. The water protector has very fast as its default attack speed, while the flame tower begins with fast and gains very fast after a few upgrades. So, while the flame tower initially hits harder than the other, it also hits less, resulting in a lower damage output. 

 

Last thing to keep in mind here is range. For those of you that don't know, the width of one square (the size of a tiny lvl 1-4 lumber mill) is 48. So, by dividing a units range by 48, you find out how many squares away it can hit a target.

 

The water protector starts with a range of 750, and upgrades to 800 at level 6. However, this point is almost negligible, as its current placement only allows it to hit melee attackers and flying mobs that have crossed over your wall. You can forget about using this tower to protect your repair bots/mechanics from any ranged mobs, or an air mob that has flown past it and into your lumber area.

 

The flame tower starts with 525, and gains 25 range per upgrade, maxing out at 650. Even though its initial range is much lower than the water protector, being able to place it closer to your walls lets it be used more effectively. 

 

 

 

 

So, how many flame towers do you need to put out a similar or higher amount of damage in comparison to the water protector? Well, it depends on what level the protector is. I will concede that this next portion relies upon my estimation of the difference between their attack speeds, and it is entirely possible that my numbers are off a bit.

 

For this simulation, we will use a tower defense based on 7 flame towers vs the water protector, and compare the costs for each defense. 

 

At level one, the protector is incredibly outmatched by level one flame towers. 

 

At level 2, the protector is still outmatched by level one flame towers. At this point, you would have spent 100L on the protector.

 

At level 3, it is on par with 7 level 1 flame towers. At this point, you would have spent 850L on the protector.

 

At level 4, it is outmatched by 7 level 2 flame towers. At this point, you would have spent 2350L on the water protector, or 35L on the flame towers.

 

At level 5, it is outmatched by 7 level 3 flame towers. At this point, you would have spent 5100L on the water protector, or 140L on the flame towers. 

 

At level 6, it is outmatched by 7 level 6 flame towers. At this point, you would have spent 10,600L on the protector, or 1470L on the flame towers. 

 

Again, let me reinforce the point that those were estimated comparisons. Actual numbers may vary. However, even if the numbers vary slightly, there's a huge price gap for such a similar amount of damage. 

 

I haven't brought it up yet, but at level 6 the water protector gains a magic ability. It costs 25 mana to cast (the protector has a mana pool of 200 which refills slowly over time, or can be refilled using the Tree of Vigor.) This move sends forth a wave that deals 2500 damage to enemies in an area. I don't have the stats for the magic ability that the flame tower casts, so I can not make a comparison here. The only advantage that the protector has is that you can control its ability manually, and it has almost no cooldown.

 

 

Alright, I'm done throwing numbers around. Kudos to anyone who actually read through all of that. I still have a couple points to make, but they're number free. 

 

Let's talk about placement.

 

The base that the water protector was originally designed for, was the Garden of Eden. It was a small base, and the protector was the center piece of it. If upgraded, the protector was able to defend every area of the base from every threat such as melee mobs hitting the walls, air mobs flying into your base, or ranged mobs targeting your repairs. With the current placement in the Summer Cottage Garden, the protectors only cover the lower half of the base, and just barely shoot far enough to hit melee attackers on the walls. 

 

And what if the water protector dies? Well, if it dies, you're left with a pool of water that you can't build on. In the original base, that would have been a crippling blow if someone was actually relying on a tower based defense, as there wasn't enough room for many towers due to that pool. That's not so much of an issue now, since the SCG base is so large. But since this tower is meant to be the main attraction of that base, losing it kind of sucks. 

 

 

 

So, here's what I would like to see done in order to make this tower more practical to use

  1. First and foremost, lower the cost of it. I would say that spending roughly 3500L on it would be enough for what its final upgrade does. That's a little more than the cost of a rainbow blasting staff. 
  2. Take it out of the SCG base, and move it to a smaller base with a single entrance, like its original base. That, or make the SCG base have a single large entrance, and have the protectors range increased to compensate for it.
  3. Give the owner some way to revive it. It sucks to lose this thing if you actually want to use it, and an air boss smacking away at it can make short work of it. 


#2 Nevo

Nevo

    Webmaster





Posted 03 February 2016 - 02:33 PM

I will balance the cost of the Water Protector for the next version.

I like the way the two entranced Summer Cottage Garden currently is setup.

While loosing these towers is a drag, decreasing upgrade costs and factoring in the current tower upgrades will greatly reduce tower loss.

On the other hand, I have thought about making a Second Chance Upgrade for Towers which would include the Water Protector.



#3 mv1990

mv1990

    Staff Sergeant




                             

Posted 04 February 2016 - 12:06 AM

It is kind of hard to balance it. water protector is just like suji tower and ...shade king? although suji has 100 less range. Imagine you spend about 10,000L for a super larceny and has 3000 damage for your unit such as captain, 3500L x 3 = 10,500L for 3 final towers like water protector, shade king, and shade queen outmatches captain with a super larceny while those towers can reach 6K damages each. I would totally use those towers when dealing with bosses that have magic immunity. If the price remains high for those towers, I would simply use Earth Impellers instead.

 

Towers cannot move             vs.  items can be transferred + units can move

Towers won't be freezed       vs.  units have low max health points but easier to reproduce + hero can learn Critical Shot

 

I support your idea to lower the cost for those towers, we need more damage output at early stages to be able to survive.



#4 Sieghart93

Sieghart93

    Dedicated Survivor



                   

Posted 05 February 2016 - 10:28 AM

well as suggested long time ago @ Towers shouldve be the priority or some sort of main keys in such type of base building survival game.. before recent updates theres practically no updates on the towers while creeps are getting stronger and only hero and mercenaries are usable for long terms ...

 

 

still... i hope there should be some sort of mastery upgrades for Mercenaries , walls , tower or maybe even lumbering  ... ok maybe not lumbering.. ( The player can choose to uprade only 1 in a game )  which provide further special bonuses for them which can greatly encourage co-op plays



#5 Waffle(est)

Waffle(est)

    Dedicated Survivor




   

Posted 26 February 2016 - 06:09 PM

units are more flexible tho + you can squeese 4 of them in the space of 1 tower.

 

also the space used by a tower is somethign constly too as you cant use it for anything else ,lumber mills for example,

 

this matters in a small base. this is why TheFilthyRat rarely if ever uses towers, even tho upping hero damage is more expensive..

because you end up with superior income if you use toe space for mills in stead, you often end up ahead even with the higher cost, also most towers take time to build so your builder will be busy and not be producing mills.

 

add to this the fact that towers are FRAGILE, they often die easily and if they do you lose all your time and lumber investments in them.

at the same time a hero is often quite robust and if lost reviving him has 0 cost. and you get him back at 100% strength.

 

restoring a tower setup can be especially hard since it might be impossible to rebuild a lost tower because you cant have the builder next to it for building it unless you kill some nearby structure.

 

 

this all makes usingn the hero the 0-thought, simple, robust, low-risk, higher-income solution. which is why towers are nowadays so unpopular.

 

this really will stay this way as long as heroes and towers directly compete i'm afraid, if heroes had some other things they needed to take care of then perhaps towers would see more use.. or if say you were only allowed to use the hero for some % of time...



#6 Nevo

Nevo

    Webmaster





Posted 28 February 2016 - 01:51 PM

Towers are no-longer fragile, with all the various tower upgrades, including hit points and regeneration, they are able hold their ground, even on nightmare.

Also the current version now offers a Second Chance Upgrade for Towers which works on tower levels 2-6.

For convenience, the Item Vendor has a 20x Basic Tower Pack in the Misc tab which one can buy to quickly and effectively rebuild destroyed towers.