here are some of my suggestions I thought playing your map.
First of all, this map is really well done; all the work you put into it can be seen, so be proud
What I see is a map that started long ago with an idea and with time evolved into what we can play now.
So there are thing that changed cause you put a lot of focus, and others that remained the same cause things were fine that way.
What I propose are little change related to "optimization", but I can be wrong if there are thing that i like to change but are that way for a purpose.
Here we go:
1) The builder has 2 build menu to switch, why not just make one?
Since a page is about tower, you could simply create a "tower basement" which could upgrade to all tower.
this free a lot of space on the builder, do this and something else (ex. wall and repair) and you will need only a build menu.
2) Are really all those different tower usefull? I think a thought for semplification can be done.
To me the feedback tower dont seem that usefull (it say it burn 10 mana for 20 extra dmg... should this scare the bosses?)
I propose a tower with corruption, should be a little more usefull.
3) about upgrades, after the tower regen, i'll add even a passive regen for support structure. I dont think this will unbalance too much, just 1% regen should be enough.
4) Theme of the map!
We have builder who can construct uber-tech structure (hyper-lumbering...) with space marines to help defend and ..... a mage ....
The point here is, this map is totally oriented on the sci-fi theme, there is a way to stick to it? I agree some magic coul fill in, cause we have demon/monster on the other side, but the magic-related stuff should be more merged with the sci-fi theme.
It could be done by simply changing model/name/spell etc...
5) Mercenaries
3 upgrade of barracks, each one with his units, are all really needed? I'm pretty sure on this could be done some optimization. I suggest lesser unit, and maybe put an evolution on the lower tiers, so they can be turned usefull after.
And now...
6) Evasion.
A lot of the discussion of balancing are about how much evasion a boss shoul have.
My question is "why only this?"
Seems there are no consideration on other factor, first of all armor and health. I think adjusting armor render balancing more easy than just evasion.
I'm not saying that sould be removed, but in my vision 30% should be the max.
Having a wall of red "miss" on screen is just pointless to me.
i suggest considering the "defend" ability.
Ok, these are my thoughts.... for now.
I hope to be usefull, if some of these things should remain as they are now, just say it and i wont argue more.
Having a generic "base" tower might cause some problems; for example the arrow towers generally used for stalling have a very low build time (as stalls are what they're intended for), but the other towers have a much longer build time, as they scale better into the end-game phase [considering upgrades of course].
But I do have to agree some of the towers are pretty pointless with their current stats, I find myself only using arrow towers for stalls, and assassin, rock, gravity, ice/frost, and fire/lava sometimes. Can't say I've really touched the others much.
I like the idea with a Base tower but then I think the gameplay would feel strange.
Because when you play fs you normaly waste 80% of ur time on doing mills and towers, so if towers takes lets say max 2 min to build then you can chill for the rest of the game, which is bad according to Me.
Some idea are nice though like some towers are useless and lower lvl mercenary units also useless, exept that blademaster for 1 wood or something for true sight. I suggest put in that Laser Tower that was in 6.00 or 6.10 , dont remember so good but it looked like a tank that fires laser very fast but had to reload for like 5 sec. I really liked that tower, should be replaced with Feedback tower.
Having a generic "base" tower might cause some problems; for example the arrow towers generally used for stalling have a very low build time (as stalls are what they're intended for), but the other towers have a much longer build time, as they scale better into the end-game phase [considering upgrades of course].
I like the idea with a Base tower but then I think the gameplay would feel strange.
Because when you play fs you normaly waste 80% of ur time on doing mills and towers, so if towers takes lets say max 2 min to build then you can chill for the rest of the game, which is bad according to Me.
You got a point,
the basic idea was to create a tower basement and a wall basement, just cause this was the logic separation.
However instead it could be grouped by building time: there could be the light basement (fast, for walls and arrow tower and anything considered "stalling") and the heavy basement (slow, for all the big tower).
This way things could be rebalanced the same way those are now.
we make 2-3 basement groups. some would be quick to build but relatively weak structures while other groups would take longer to build but be much more powerful.
we currently have nearly a full build menu dedicated to redundant towers.. but were we to split them across the 3 categories... i see this as a chance for improvement
also.. since it only takes a few sec to make a lvl5 formation the time spent on towering actually has a very strong impact on towering!
so in stead it might make sense to make a batch of delay towers quickly at start then go rush lumber..
later kill delays and replace with stronger towers. (burt best towers take long to build so u cant kit fully with them unless u got a lumberer/help) so you would be forced to combine with med towers..
(ps. i added a -destroy to next ver , works on all selected structures. is instant (but does not return any resourses))
not currently towers do have different build times but it is NOT on any tooltip, even i have no idea how long it takes for most towers..
making them based on say3 bases would make this obvious.
Just make a base tower with the same build time of a arrow tower but it then after builded must be uppgraded to one of the current fs towers, with the same speed of the specific tower.
thats not the problem. to spend 5 minutes on upping a tower to first lvl is still cheap if u build base tower in 0.5s.
it is the TIME OF THE BUILDER that is valuable and scarce. that is precious and different needs compete for that resource.
time spent on UPGRADING a tower is virtually free, worthless.
time of your builder is VERY valuable. time of your builder can be converted to wood INCOME (not just 1w per 1s spent on lumbering but a permanent income boost for each second you spend lumbering) time of your builder can give you special buildings u need, replace broken walls, give you delay structures, farsight, paratroopers, eventually to hero stats.
upgrade time of towers cant be converted to anything else therefore it is WORTHLESS!
also 3 base towers can be used to add a new game mechanic, this is why i think it is interesting. we already have advanced build menu system and changing it at all is lots of work. i would not consider it if it had no benefit of its own.
First Menu: Barricade, Energy Wall, Flame Turret, Frost Tower, Tesla Coil, Rock Thrower, Arrow Tower, Novice Assassin Tower, Arcane Tower, Peasant Launcher, and Gravity Disruptor.
Second Menu: Lumber Mill, Repair Unit, Repair Factory, Mercenary Tent, Command Center, Sentry Post, Aura Statue, Bunker, Minigun Turret, Item Vendor, and Bookshelf.
here are some of my suggestions I thought playing your map.
Here we go:
1) The builder has 2 build menu to switch, why not just make one?
Since a page is about tower, you could simply create a "tower basement" which could upgrade to all tower.
this free a lot of space on the builder, do this and something else (ex. wall and repair) and you will need only a build menu.
2) Are really all those different tower usefull? I think a thought for semplification can be done.
To me the feedback tower dont seem that usefull (it say it burn 10 mana for 20 extra dmg... should this scare the bosses?)
I propose a tower with corruption, should be a little more usefull.
3) about upgrades, after the tower regen, i'll add even a passive regen for support structure. I dont think this will unbalance too much, just 1% regen should be enough.
4) Theme of the map!
We have builder who can construct uber-tech structure (hyper-lumbering...) with space marines to help defend and ..... a mage ....
The point here is, this map is totally oriented on the sci-fi theme, there is a way to stick to it? I agree some magic coul fill in, cause we have demon/monster on the other side, but the magic-related stuff should be more merged with the sci-fi theme.
It could be done by simply changing model/name/spell etc...
5) Mercenaries
3 upgrade of barracks, each one with his units, are all really needed? I'm pretty sure on this could be done some optimization. I suggest lesser unit, and maybe put an evolution on the lower tiers, so they can be turned usefull after.
And now...
6) Evasion.
A lot of the discussion of balancing are about how much evasion a boss shoul have.
My question is "why only this?"
Seems there are no consideration on other factor, first of all armor and health. I think adjusting armor render balancing more easy than just evasion.
I'm not saying that sould be removed, but in my vision 30% should be the max.
Having a wall of red "miss" on screen is just pointless to me.
i suggest considering the "defend" ability.
Slightly sad to see only one the first is being looked into, all 6 definitely have merit. So here are my thoughts on all 6:
1) This could be good, some newer players do get confused also by this, and it can be a hassle to change builder. The challenge is, is to make the new system less confusing than the current one. The current one in some ways makes sense: you build and that is what you get. Upgrade it and it becomes better. Having so many different types of "base structures" is likely to be annoying.
2) I fully agree on this one. The abilities of the towers should be why you choose to build them, as well as their damage type. So the suggestion for this is to improve the aspects of the tower to why you choose them.
Gravity: Improve range further
Flame: More damage? Reason for getting this: chaos damage.
Rock: stun. Improve damage of the stun, so it's a little more noticable. Possibly even reduce damage of the actual tower to 1, but stun damage/length dramatically improved
Tesla: Short range high damage magic tower.
Assassain: Poison and it's ability hits magic immune (does it do damage? wasn't ever "convinced" of this, seeing the ability finger of death can be casted on magic immunes but it deals 0 damage). Personally i'd remove it's ability and give it to the flame towers (makes sense, chaos hits everything for 100%) and give it a poison spell which reduced attack speed further.
Currently all towers except Glacial are too much of the same.
3) not 100% sure what you are suggesting here. We already have the purchasable tree to regen buildings when monsters arn't attacking and various upgrades for everything else.
4) Part of me wants to agree and part doesn't.
Warcraft 3 itself is "fantasy", there is no reason at all why magicians and "sci-fi" can't mix either, we're dealing with MONSTERS which is a fantasy element. These arn't "sci-fi" monsters in my opinion.
But the buildings of FS do very much relate to sci-fi, (except for some of the tower upgrades like dragon towers, where does that make sense? why would wards be towers?)
It does look a little out of place as well. We have some people here whom are excellent with unit editing, so adding some form of armor to the druids would make them "fit in" a bit better i suspect. i.e just grab the marine skin, take the armor, chuck it on the druid, blend it in a bit and voila (except it's not that easy lol, i suck unit editing).
5. Some things would be used a lot more if people realised how strong they are, free marines deal a pretty impressive amount of damage, only problem is using food instead of your repair bots and range. Swordsmen are amazing early game AA (high hp and good damage, hit's air using voodoo magic), the middle upgrade to me is the most weird, personally i'd like to see that removed. Just have a "basic unit" and an "advanced unit" barracks. This would probably encourage more use of it.
6. Not sure about this one.
One interesting idea, is that it promotes the use of wizards, whom are essential (in my opinion anyway) for mad or harder, seeing evasion is 100% blocked by hex.
Defend could be interesting to add to some units, but it would be a little confusing seeing there is no information to say why they're taking less damage, unless we wrote it clearly above their head as they used the skill (possibly not a bad idea either, i.e for earthquake used by one of the bosses can be stated above their head also)
Could also be used for an "accuracy" tower, which has 100% accuracy against everything
Anyway, in some sense i like all of the ideas. Some of them require a bit more thought. Thanks for posting!
First Menu: Barricade, Energy Wall, Flame Turret, Frost Tower, Tesla Coil, Rock Thrower, Arrow Tower, Novice Assassin Tower, Arcane Tower, Peasant Launcher, and Gravity Disruptor.
Second Menu: Lumber Mill, Repair Unit, Repair Factory, Mercenary Tent, Command Center, Sentry Post, Aura Statue, Bunker, Minigun Turret, Item Vendor, and Bookshelf.
Damn, i just missed one word:
"So, can someone recover a list of all the basic avaible construction TIME in use now?"
We need the time to make a reasoning on this.
Sorry for the work, but it's good to have a list ready anyways.
Slightly sad to see only one the first is being looked into, all 6 definitely have merit. So here are my thoughts on all 6:
1) This could be good, some newer players do get confused also by this, and it can be a hassle to change builder. The challenge is, is to make the new system less confusing than the current one. The current one in some ways makes sense: you build and that is what you get. Upgrade it and it becomes better. Having so many different types of "base structures" is likely to be annoying.
2) I fully agree on this one. The abilities of the towers should be why you choose to build them, as well as their damage type. So the suggestion for this is to improve the aspects of the tower to why you choose them.
Gravity: Improve range further
Flame: More damage? Reason for getting this: chaos damage.
Rock: stun. Improve damage of the stun, so it's a little more noticable. Possibly even reduce damage of the actual tower to 1, but stun damage/length dramatically improved
Tesla: Short range high damage magic tower.
Assassain: Poison and it's ability hits magic immune (does it do damage? wasn't ever "convinced" of this, seeing the ability finger of death can be casted on magic immunes but it deals 0 damage). Personally i'd remove it's ability and give it to the flame towers (makes sense, chaos hits everything for 100%) and give it a poison spell which reduced attack speed further.
Currently all towers except Glacial are too much of the same.
3) not 100% sure what you are suggesting here. We already have the purchasable tree to regen buildings when monsters arn't attacking and various upgrades for everything else.
4) Part of me wants to agree and part doesn't.
Warcraft 3 itself is "fantasy", there is no reason at all why magicians and "sci-fi" can't mix either, we're dealing with MONSTERS which is a fantasy element. These arn't "sci-fi" monsters in my opinion.
But the buildings of FS do very much relate to sci-fi, (except for some of the tower upgrades like dragon towers, where does that make sense? why would wards be towers?)
It does look a little out of place as well. We have some people here whom are excellent with unit editing, so adding some form of armor to the druids would make them "fit in" a bit better i suspect. i.e just grab the marine skin, take the armor, chuck it on the druid, blend it in a bit and voila (except it's not that easy lol, i suck unit editing).
5. Some things would be used a lot more if people realised how strong they are, free marines deal a pretty impressive amount of damage, only problem is using food instead of your repair bots and range. Swordsmen are amazing early game AA (high hp and good damage, hit's air using voodoo magic), the middle upgrade to me is the most weird, personally i'd like to see that removed. Just have a "basic unit" and an "advanced unit" barracks. This would probably encourage more use of it.
6. Not sure about this one.
One interesting idea, is that it promotes the use of wizards, whom are essential (in my opinion anyway) for mad or harder, seeing evasion is 100% blocked by hex.
Defend could be interesting to add to some units, but it would be a little confusing seeing there is no information to say why they're taking less damage, unless we wrote it clearly above their head as they used the skill (possibly not a bad idea either, i.e for earthquake used by one of the bosses can be stated above their head also)
Could also be used for an "accuracy" tower, which has 100% accuracy against everything
Anyway, in some sense i like all of the ideas. Some of them require a bit more thought. Thanks for posting!
Thanks to your review,
to give you a reply on all:
1) my idea was to have 2 "base" (max 3 if is possible to combine the 2 repair) to not create much confusion.
However one start enjoing this map after learning what to do and when, and this require a bit, by then the building organization should not be a problem. I think the most annoying things is to lose the building queue by switching menu.
2) While many people seems to agree on this, the remake need a lot of thoughts and time.
I think the developers should decide to get their hands on this to do things well done. If they start, we could suggest all we want.
Also, i think there is no point in using the chaos/normal/pierce/hero/etc attack type, since you are against a boss or mobs.
The same for the defence, divine for bosses, fortified for structure, something else for unit, no more.
Would be nice to know the %dmg, so one can make his choice better in the tower build.
3) this is more related to what annoy me. you could also say "on what logic should tower/walls have a regen upgrade and other structure not?". you could get the passive regeneration as an aura on the tree to affect all building, and set the active to be burst of healing when needed. Or something else, whatever.
Related to this: Why support structure get damaged?, for me, most of the time is due to some ranged enemy that hit from the border of the base(not considering air). this could be resolved by reducing the attack range, or do not give them vision over the map.
4) This is more a matter of taste, for example i'd like the alchemist to have the model of the thinker, since to me fit better the role of building-mover.
For the mage, maybe some kind of "possessed" marine with the style of a warlock (more demonic magic).
And for the "there aren't sci-fi monster", well, i could disagree saying Zerg, or giant spider/scorpion, where evolution/genetic engineering could be the explanation.
5) This also require some thoughts, since everyone has his opinion. However suggestion are always good.
What about the tanking units, is someone worth it? Could be interesting having a unit with a temp ability that give a huge amount of armor and the taunt, to give little breath to the walls.
6) Full open to any kind of suggestion.
I just said defend cause seems more normal for someone to use an ability like that on low hp, unlike the repeated avatar used till now.
Anyway thanks for all the consideration.
Let's see what the dev's like, if they choose something to focus on, I'll start to give more shape to these ideas.
Command Center Sentry Post Aura Statue Mercenary Tent
Item Vendor Bookshelf
Where:
- Repair Factory can be upgraded to Repair unit (2° level). The 1st level of repair unit can be removed, since stats are the same of RF
- Base 1 include: Barricade, Energy Wall, Arrow Tower
- Base 2 include: All other tower (with minigun) and bunker
This way all should be almost the same as now.
The change would be Energy wall from 10 to 2 sec, Barricade from 1 to 2 sec, Bunker from 10 to 35 sec and Minigun Turret from 25 to 35 sec.
The only advantage would be Energy wall, which one don't build 50 of them, but only the minimun required, so in term of time gained should be around a minute, time now you lose buiding Barricade for stall.
For the Bunker and Minigun Turret, you could balance them with a little improvements.
Galvanis
